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Tuesday, August 09, 2005

Male Circumcision III

Amazingly, I get no answer for both the questions (posted previously) as below: -

Q for Christians: If circumcision is indeed commanded by God, why are Christians excempted from complying?
Q for Jews: Why must Jewish boys have a covenant (with God) while the girls do not need one?

The non-response (just got one via email) is actually a wonderful phenomenon because it gives mankind a new hope in a positive direction ... I'd talk about its implication in the near future.

Meanwhile, let's move on with the ongoing topic ... Based on the arguments in Male Circumcision II, should we support the newly proposed bill to ban circumcision for boys as below?

The Male Genital Mutilation Bill ("MGM bill")

The clash of gender, religion and the protection of children

By Sherry Colb, FindLaw columnist, professor @ Rutgers Law School

A San Diego based group that calls itself a health and human rights organization recently submitted a proposed bill to Congress called the Male Genital Mutilation Bill ("MGM bill"). The bill, if adopted, would ban the practice of circumcising baby boys.

Excerpts: -

But is the pain 'unnecessary'?

only religious and cultural reasons for the continuing choice of parents to circumcise their children for Jews and Muslims alike ...

When may the law intervene in religious practice?

…The U.S. Constitution itself, however, as construed by the Supreme Court in Employment Division v. Smith, does not actually require the accommodation of religious conduct, provided that any prohibition applied to that conduct is part of a neutral, generally applicable law … In Prince v. Massachusetts, for example, the Court held that a mother could be prosecuted under child labor laws for having her children distribute literature for the Jehovah's Witnesses in the streets, notwithstanding her religious motivation for her actions …

Should the law intervene?

If circumcision turns out to be what medical professionals are saying that it is -- unanesthetized amputation from a newborn child of living, healthy tissue flush with nerve endings, for no medically beneficial result -- then it might seem quite proper to prevent parents from subjecting their infants to this cruelty.

Among others, it say ‘Circumcision = Kosher Slaughter’!

Much more at CNN FindLaw

The best solution: Wait

Does this mean that religiously motivated practices should be immune from legal intervention, no matter how harmful and abusive? Of course not. The ban on female genital mutilation, in fact, is a good example of appropriate legislation banning a practice embraced by a minority in this country for a combination of religious and cultural reasons. The costs to girls and women who have suffered the procedure are just too great to permit it to continue.

And recalling what Vivienne commented“Anyone has the right to circumcision as any one of us has the right to be tattooed. No one has the right to get a baby tattooed or circumcised! Respecting the autonomy of an individual to make his or her own mind up is important.”

Should we ban it?

Alternately, what say you about my God inspired idea of circumcising without knife ... no blood, no pain, no scar! Stay tuned for the details.


Blogger La Bona said...

email comment from Erin Gadd

FGM is a practice that equates to nothing more than a horrific crime against humanity. The whole point of the "custom" is to prevent the female from achieving an orgasm.

If you want to learn more about this I would suggest checking out some websites on American Indians. Specifically look for Cleveland Ohio dental clinics. I remember hearing a few years ago a story about American Indian women going in for a cleaning and coming out with no clitoris. I know that this sounds far fetched but if you would like more evidence, I suggest also researching what the US gov did to women in Puerto Rico and Columbia.


"The women of this country ought be enlightened in regard to the laws under which they live, that they may no longer publish their degradation by declaring themselves satisfied with their present position, nor their ignorance, by asserting that they have all the rights they want."

Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1815-1902),
a social reformer and women's suffrage leader

Got Equality yet?

10:37 PM  
Blogger La Bona said...

email comment from J. Smith

I believe most religions are pushed by fat old men who are too lazy and or perverted to actually do work. I don't find any rule of any religion acceptable that involve inflicting pain or injury on anyone.

10:37 PM  
Blogger La Bona said...

email comment from Mark W. Balthrop

I'm glad to answer your question from my faith tradition of Christianity that believes the 66 books of the Old and New Testament are the word of God.

No, female circumcision is not acceptable and is a grievous sin, since it would deprive a woman of biblically recognized sexual satisfaction in 1 Corinthians 7:5.

A Christian has no need for circumcision at all. We find this in 1 Corinthians 7:19 "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God." And we see that circumcision as the covenant sign has been replaced by baptism in Colossians 2. Baptism is indeed a better sign for many reasons, not the least of which is that there is no difference between male and female.

10:40 PM  
Blogger Nilk said...

Circumcision of either gender is an unnecessary mutilation of a healthy body.

Does the foreskin contain nerves? Asolutely.

Does a circumcised man get more pleasure from sex than an uncircumcised man? Absolutely not.

There is no excuse for it whatsoever.

Years ago I knew someone who had been circumcised for medical reasons in his thirties. Believe me, 20 years down the track he is till missing that bit of skin.

As for male circumcision being a religious requirement. Hmmm.

Okay, if we look to the bible, we must also look at the context. You are living in the desert. No running water, no antibiotics, no doctors as we know them. No real understanding of hygiene, either. For that reason, I don't have any objection to it in an historical context.

The world we live in now, however, has more than adequate information on hygiene, disease and what causes it, and how to prevent it. (ie WASH YOUR HANDS!!!)

1:42 AM  
Blogger La Bona said...

I sought Mark W. Balthrop’s clarification on who authored Corinthians so as to ascertain to whom should we give the credit for Christians to be exempted from circumcision as per “A Christian has no need for circumcision at all. We find this in 1 Corinthians 7:19 "For neither circumcision counts for anything noruncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God."

I was right all along, Mark replied “The Apostle Paul identifies himself as the author in 1 Corinthians 1:1 and 16:21. External evidence of Paul writing this letter is supported by people such as Clement of Rome (c. 95-97) and Augustine (c. 400).”

Once again, thank you Mark, thank you Paul whom I am considering to confer the title ‘Lord’ … Any seconder?

10:59 AM  
Blogger La Bona said...

email comment from Mat Karut

Female and male Circumcision.

After a brillient taylor completed sewing beautiful pairs of dress. One of for a female and one is for a male. The Taylor has to cut a little bit here and there for any loosing ends or treads to make it more beautiful. Even the dresses has been put into display. This how beautiful the art of god is. To indicate that He cares. For those who knows and appreciate.

La Bona: Do you mean God's creation is imprefect that it needs a taylor to do some hemming and trimming?

12:06 PM  
Blogger La Bona said...

comment from an older entry

poopernut said...

Female circumcision…

One thing we must really, really keep in mind is that no matter what we think about it personally (and personally I thank God everyday for my sweet clitoris and feel it is a great blessing), other cultures often have their different ways of creating meaning and value and connection with God and with each other. This is not just a mainstream religion issue (if it truly is at all). In my education, this is something that I thought happened more often NOW in indigenous cultures, as part of ceremonies for women (and usually by women), a coming of age of sorts. And sometimes, an empowering act. This is something I found in researching a bit about female circumcision in Sierra Leone, among some of the indigenous groups there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_circumcision

Many have also argued that for as long as this practice has gone on, particularly in Africa, it has only been more recently- last 50 years or so- that is became dangerous- largely due in part to the bankrupting of Africa at the hands of westerners and industrialized Europeans. At this point, indigenous knowledge and ways and medicines had been pretty much destroyed in many ways, yet indigenous folks were still wanting to practice some their age old customs, but no longer had the safe means to do it. So. There’s that.

I am glad awareness is spreading about this, but look with your other eyes-

Speaking as an American, “we” think it is okay to circumcise virtually every male, tell our women they are sluts if they engage in sex freely, pay our women less than men in the same jobs, fire women for giving birth, and treat women like sex objects on every street corner where a billboard can fit. And we still remain a society plagued with violence against women. What high horse of ultimate knowledge are we sitting on that we have the means to say this is wrong? Yes, putting people’s health at risk is not good, and perhaps we do have our finger on something when we say that health is an unalienable human right. But this practice could be done safely and cleanly. Yes, it bugs me too that women are in some cases I am sure, virtually forced into losing their clitorises because of social conditioning and pressure- it breaks my heart. But is it our responsibility to walk into a totally foreign culture and ideology and declare right from wrong? We have not figured that out, even for ourselves.


5:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for the given link to your site LaBona...Ive read several parts of your posts and do remind you that the trouble with many people especially Muslims/Arabs is the culturalism that still widely exists in developing countries and locations, if it is at a small city, village, or the Capital.

Female circumcision in my belief, is not accepted or appropriate. If you ask a person, Muslim or not, of Male and Female Circumcisions about why they do it, which I have asked before, their response is "well Male circumcision is done to take away the UNcleaniness of a man...female circumcision is a different case where tribes had done female circumcision to prove to other tribes or important people that their girl or daughter is rather a 'virgin' or some in cases 'clean' for she is 'closed up'." (they SOMETIMES say the following about FGM). I feel a sense of duty to the Male circumcision when I hear people talk about it because it is cultural more than Female circumcision, correct or not? Male circumcision existed long before, as you persisted to mention during Abraham's time. As with Female circumcision, it's become increasing over the previous years, in the West too. I tend to think that the Female circumcision comes from a need to make women inferior, treated like bargains...and having said so, I have read a true story about a lady who is now a Fashion Model, named Waris Dirie-Desertflower. I am a Muslim but I defy the works of extreme culturism. I am cultural, I adore my Iraqi roots, and I adore the things we do, but there has to be times such acts should not be taken in this century for we have progressed dramatically.

Another note to take, is this ideology of worshipping...now I know all three main faiths are about God, but what makes the faith of God to be 3 faiths of God created upon by US over the years is the view we see of Him. Is he a man, Holy Spirit, or simply an Inhuman God? How do we connect to Him though? This is where things go rather wrong...Some get baptised, some get radicalised, some turn to worship fellow Prophets or messengers that are believed to be sent by God himself to make us believe in Him. Now if Circumcision came from the actions of a man that was a Prophet or Messenger more than 1500 years ago and if it's done now, then it turns into this idea of 'follow the vice leader'. The same with Muslims....Many Sunnis see Prophet Mohammed as someone to be worshipped, yet they deny that they do. Everything he DID, the people today seem to do and make excuses that they are allowed to do it because they should be following everything Mohammed PBUH did do. This is where things get messy in religious acts and where it divides believers upon religion, eg: Sunni and Shia. Thus, this is where many Muslims are still in the olden days where they live in tribes and disregard the century+progress we are at. This isn't everywhere in the Middle East but it still does exist. The Dark side of Culture and Religion....that's what it really is.


8:07 AM  
Blogger La Bona said...


see http://divinetalk.blogspot.com/2005/08/death-to-female-circumcision.html

10:30 AM  
Blogger Daniel M. Perez said...

In Judaism, we learn from the Talmud that women do not need a physical circumcision because they already have an inner covenant with G-d. You can interpret this spiritually, which the Talmud does, saying that women are more inherently spiritual than men and which is the reason why they are exempt from many of the time-related commandments (like putting on tefillin or reading from the Torah) while men need these commandments (including circumcision) in order to reaffirm their bond with G-d. Or you could interpret that physically, that the inner covenant with G-d is their ability to produce life, which is also discussed in the Talmud. There is no one reason (you know, two Jews, three opinions), but it is accepted that women don't have the need for a physical reminder of the covenant with G-d.

1:38 PM  

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WARNING: Blind obsession with prophecy can be perilous or even fatal, reader discretion is advised! Submitted to God as His worldly Activist on a non-exclusive basis since June 15, 2005 1:00 am ET. “La Bona” is a professional name inspired by God; it means "The Righteous", “The Virtuous” or simply “The Good” in Esperanto (a neutral international language). DivineTalk® is an Open Commentary Forum dedicated to God for His Children to engage in dialogue, discourse and debate on laws, standards and values on morality, lifestyle, ethics, business and just about anything else related to their life. God enlightened to have His Words improvised and updated with the prevailing circumstances so that the divine guidance, dogma and policy will evolve with time and stay relevant to His Children in the very era they live in as the way forward. La Bona is a Truth Seeker, Myth Buster, Freedom Fighter, Cyber Activist, Liberal Animal, Good Samaritan, Messiah Wannabe and in order to serve His Children of diverse backgrounds, La Bona is motivated and aim to eventually multitask as Divine Representative, Contemporary Prophet, Celestial Executive, Deity Clairvoyant, Holy Spiritualist ...

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